Although God commanding war isn’t something I really struggle with to the point of shaking my faith, even though it seems extremely unfair to us and the thought of violent loss of life is extremely bothersome, I found this article very helpful.
How Could God Command Genocide in the Old Testament?
Edited: 9/26/09 for clarity
If it doesn’t give you pause, then you probably don’t value human beings properly.
It certainly bothers me as far as the violence and killing people but I don’t struggle with it philosophically to the point of it making me doubt my faith in God. I made no comment on my value of human beings.
Jeff
Let me try this again. I wrote that comment very late at night and didn’t do as good of a job as I should have.
———
I feel bad that you would think I probably don’t value human beings properly, especially since you don’t know me. Since I didn’t make a comment on the human aspect of it, I don’t feel like I need to defend myself (although I did change the original post for clarity). I always let God be God even though there are things that seem extremely unfair like wiping out a whole country of people or allowing so much suffering (which I deal with on a chronic level).
This blog isn’t like Dr Jim West’s where people are often harsh with each other and it’s the norm.
Jeff doesn’t value human life?
What’s up with that?
Jeff hates babies?!! [edit for profanity acronym]
; )
Bryan L
Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean I don’t love babies. As long as they go back home at night.
Jeff
Perhaps we have misread Jeremiah. Maybe he was just pointing out the obvious that God’s judgment should give us all pause.
Jeremiah? Will you elaborate?
It looks like I offended you, sorry man, not the intention. I suppose the real point I was trying to make is that more conservative bible readers like myself often (ironically) fail to read Israel’s enemies as real people. I think a lot of Christians simply gloss over the horror of the ban and Yahweh war in general, often with an attitude that ignores that these people are also made in the image of God and therefore intrinsically valuable. I was attempting to prod you a bit to see if that was the case. If it was overly snarky I apologize.
Jeff,
I have to say that the article you linked to feels very week and callous to me. As Jeremiah says, if somebody can believe God would murder an entire nation simply to provide some Christians with a picture of what judgement will be like, then I think that person might have to take a step back and rethink their understanding of who God is. Ditto for a number of the other points (God has absolute ownership over everything, so he can do what he wants, for example).
I believe the entire issue sidestepped if you realize that, despite being inspired by God, and in every way a sacred text, the bible is also a historical text written by man. It is a record of an ongoing revelation of God, and, as is very clear, as you read through the bible, the character of God is revealed to be very different than how he was viewed at the beginning.
It’s not God changing: It’s God revealing himself to the Israelites. At first, they believe he required human sacrifice, that he ordered murder and war, and a lot of other things that God as revealed through Christ and the rest of history would not have ordered. But Israel believed that he ordered that, and they were guided towards Christ by the Prophets (who pointed the way slowly to mercy from sacrifice) and then finally through Christ.
Jeremiah, thank you for the apology and I am a little sensitive sometimes so you wouldn’t find yourself in that position with many other people. I can see where you’re coming from. I have a hard time reading a lot of the OT. I hate violence and hate seeing or reading about people in pain. At the same time I don’t ignore it. I wonder how God can do that and watch it but at the same time I don’t struggle with it as far as it causing doubts or thinking less of God because of it as I mentioned. God is God.
Thank you for writing back.
Damian, are you saying that God didn’t order the war against the Canaanites? I’m not quite clear what you’re saying on that.
I do believe that God has absolute ownership over everything and can do what he wants. I’m not sure how else it should be.
As far as “The destruction of the Canaanites is a picture of the final judgment” I think that could be just a part of it, as an ancillary result or example, but not the main purpose. But it does sound a little “Piper-ish” to me. Meaning it’s the type of thing that John Piper would say where something happens as a way of judgment and is a wake up call, as would a tornado or hurricane. But I don’t think people usually make that connection in a tornado or killing the Canaanites.
Jeff
Jeff, – Yeah I don’t think God ordered war against the Canaanites. I believe that it’s what the nation at the time believed God wanted them to do. It’s very similar to what the other gods in the area were doing at the time. And this is my point: God as described early in the OT is very similar to all the other gods. He slowly differentiates himself over millenia, through prophets and then finally through Christ and the apostles.
Yes, God does have absolute ownership and can do what he wants. But, for example, God had rules for how slaves were treated. His character prevents the wholesale slaughter of any human. The way this was phrased in the article, suggests a callousness (that we all object to – if a child tears the head off his toy because it’s his, we reprimand him)that I do not believe is in God.
Hmm, it is very ‘Piper-ish’ in that sense. I hadn’t thought of that – and I disagree very strongly with that (I wrote a post about it).
Damian,
But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 20:16-18 ESV)
How is it that you don’t think God ordered war against the Canaanites?
Damian, what I believe is even if God is revealed more and more as Scripture/time goes on, He’s still the same and Scripture is inspired and portrays God accurately the whole way through.
Other general comments: although it’s horrific what happened to the Canaanites, and I wouldn’t even want to get a glimpse of it, God hates evil more than I do and the Canaanites received what they deserve according to God’s judgment. So while we value all human life along with God, He hates the evil they perpetrated. God is love. But God is many other things also that go along with that. God is not tamable.
As far as Jeremiah prodding me, this may be something that Dr Jim West does with success with some people. I don’t think it works well with me partly because I’m sensitive and partly because I’m kind of dull and often just don’t get it unless people are very straightforward.
Jeff
Stan,
Because, as Jeff picked up on, I don’t believe that scripture necessarily portrays God accurately the whole way through; in fact, I believe that God is portrayed in an ongoing revelation throughout scripture, being more complete at the end of the New Testament, and incomplete (and often misinterpreted in the light of the religious situation of the times) in the beginning of the Old Testament. Jeff (and, if I judge correctly from your blog, you) would disagree, and think that God’s sameness is reflected in that all parts of scripture apply equally to him. I think that’s a fair interpretation, until it produces uncharacteristic actions by God.
Jeff, I agree that God has many other characteristics other than love. But that does not mean that God can be unloving in any situation. He is not loving at times and just at times. He is both in all times. It is this paradox that meant that an extreme solution such as Christ was necessary. It is this paradox that means that God would not have ordered the genocide of the Canaanites, man, woman and child.
Do you believe that Scripture is more inspired as it goes on or that God didn’t want to reveal Himself as much in the beginning or that it’s just written by people who aren’t inspired?
When do we start trusting it?
Wouldn’t that mean the whole Pentateuch is misinterpreted?
Jeff
I don’t think scripture is any more inspired at any point. God wanted us to have the entirety of scripture. He sent it to us.
The best analogy to me is to compare the revelation of scripture to a journey as a Christian. When you first meet God, most of us have a very simple and (to be honest) ignorant view of who God is. But, as you grow as a Christian, you discover more aspects of God, and this continues as your life as a Christian continues. If you’d always blogged, you could probably trace the ongoing process of discover, and you might go back to things you’d written years before, and disagree with them. But all of it is revelation. All of it is the product of your relationship with God.
Scripture is a record of this process in the nation of Israel. If you look further back, the revelation is only partial. They’re a little ignorant. They project a lot of their understand of gods onto God. But they learn, and they get to know God better.
What do you mean ‘When do we start trusting it?’. It depends what you mean by trust. Scripture is a collection of books by different authors with different intentions, all inspired by God. You can’t really ‘trust’ a poem, or a parable, etc. What you can find in it, is revelation.
Again, it depends on what you mean by ‘misinterpreted’. The pentateuch is a record of what God’s people believed at that time. There is plenty of revelation of God’s nature there. It simply takes effort to find it. It takes an equal amount of effort to separate wheat from chaff anywhere in scripture.
Classic examples of your concepts of ‘trust’ and ‘misinterpretation’ being a little odd in scripture are the levitical laws, and the holiness code. Very few Christians think that these are particularly important. But they certainly reveal a lot about what the people of the time believed about God. And Paul, who wrote the majority of the New Testament, certainly seemed to think Christians should follow them. Is Paul misinterpreting? Or were the people who wrote the levitical laws wrong? My answer would be that the people who wrote those laws were having God revealed to them. They wrote down what they believed. But the prophets who came later, refined that belief. Then Christ did. Then the Apostles did. The bits that they got right are right. The parts they got wrong are wrong. Everyone is recording their ongoing revelation of a God that does not change. Christ is our most recent revelation, and everything that comes before should be in light of that; He is the lens we view scripture through.
Damian,
You’re in your own world regarding Scripture. It would seem as though you, a mere speck of dust, have placed yourself in authority over Scripture.
If you don’t believe the Bible say so. Don’t create some obtuse theory to mask unbelief.
Stan, obviously I disagree with you. I have no obtuse theory here; I simply believe that scripture is what it is: People writing about their revelation of God. I interpret the Old Testament in the light of Christ and in the light of the culture that produced it.
From where I stand, it is you that take your own tradition and elevate it above the reality of what scripture is. Please don’t assume to tell me I do not believe in a God who has rescued me and millions of others from unbelievable adversity.
Damian, where did you get these ideas? Is this a certain school of thought? Do you have any Scripture to back it up? I haven’t seen any at all. It just sounds like human logic imposed on God’s words.
If you are saying that it was Israelites just writing down what they knew of God but often misinterpreted then it wasn’t inspired writing unless God wanted us and the Israelites to know untruths. We know that all Scripture is “God breathed”. I don’t know why he would say things that are false.
When I said ‘misinterpreted’ that was a term you used.
“being more complete at the end of the New Testament, and incomplete (and often misinterpreted in the light of the religious situation of the times) in the beginning of the Old Testament.”
If what you say is true than I would just not bother with the OT or maybe even Paul and just be a red letter Christian and learn about the OT through what Jesus says.
Ps. 19:7-9
The instructions of the LORD are perfect,
reviving the soul.
The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The commandments of the LORD are right,
bringing joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are clear,
giving insight for living.
9 Reverence for the LORD is pure,
lasting forever.
The laws of the LORD are true;
each one is fair.
Ps. 119:142
Your justice is eternal,
and your instructions are perfectly true.
Jeff,
I’m sure it is a school of thought – I’ve read others who believe similar things – but it’s something I came to my own conclusion about. I don’t have any proof texts from scripture (Scripture very rarely speaks about itself), but the entirety of scripture backs it up – it’s inherent in the very nature of scripture that it was written by human hands, yet inspired by God.
You seem to be coming to the table with a particular understanding of inspired as ‘This came from the mouth of God’. I’m not convinced that that is what it means. Why are you? I believe that it is God breathed. I don’t believe that means that every word has to be true. And that does not mean I’m accusing God of being a liar. Scripture was not written by men possessed by God as per a demon in a hollywood movie. It was written by flawed men, who were passionate about knowing God.
I was addressing our understanding my use of ‘misinterpreted’ differently, Jeff. My meaning was that what people believe of God is influenced by their culture and their surrounding cultures.
If you think that you’d become a red-letter Christian if you believed what I said, then you’re missing the point: I believe they are inspired, God-breathed, and vitally important. But they are to be read according to our revelation of God.
If God was fully revealed when the first book was written that would come to be included in the bible, why are any of the books that followed necessary?
The books that followed are necessary because the beginning is only the first chapter of the story. But the first chapter is still an accurate portrayal of God written by people inspired by God but with their own personality and cultural surroundings included in their writing, but not their mistakes.
Scripture does speak about itself in 2 Tim. 3:16, Psalm 19 etc etc.
Here is a comment by Derek from another post:
One’s views about the historicity of early Genesis are a reflection of one’s view of Scripture. If one primarily views Scripture as similar to other ancient writings of the time period (Babylonian mythology, etc.), one will tend to view the Biblical writings through that lens and come up with ideas that seem sensible but actually disintegrate the unity of the Bible (and ultimately present the idea that it means something other than what it says). If one primarily views the Bible as God’s Eternal Word of Truth, as inerrant as God Himself is (though arriving by His Providence through the minds and experiences of imperfect and errant people), guarded by the Holy Spirit from any contamination or mistake, entirely pure and wholly true, one will tend to say that Scripture means exactly what it says – and that God was careful and exacting in His revelation.
http://www.scripturezealot.com/2009/09/22/adam-man-or-people/#comment-16869
I don’t think we’ll get any farther than this but feel free to post another comment if you’d like or maybe others will have something to say and I’ll just listen in. Thanks for coming by.
Jeff
Jeff,
I’m dumbfounded that you think that the entirety of God’s revelation is contained within a single book. If this is the case, why is the entire story necessary?
If a persons writing includes personality and cultural surrounding, but not their mistakes, how does this work when the person’s culture is full of reprehensible things: The most obvious example being the slavery that pervades the entire bible, without being spoken against. Does this mean that God approves of slavery? Are we wrong to turn against it?
Yes, scripture speaks about scripture. But the Psalms speak not of the Psalms, and the Epistles speak not of the Epistles, but of Torah or the Prophets.
In response to Derek: I certainly agree with his premise. I simply disagree that these ideas disintegrate the unity of the Bible, and that an inerrant view is suggested within Scripture.
I’d appreciate it if you answered my questions above, but I’m happy to leave it here if that’s what you wish.
Thanks for discussing with me!
Damian,
The problem with contextualizing texts into nothingness is that you have a context too, and you’re probably going to render null those passages which don’t fit yours. Saying it is not of God is not the solution to the problem. I think a better solution is to declare that God commanded what he commanded with the full knowledge that every Canaanite death would cause him pain and did so anyway because the working out of his will in this matter superseded those lives in importance. You are right to point to the cross in the face of such ugliness, but it should not be to erase it. Rather, the cross tells us what the big picture that these horrific events were pointing to is, and allows us to say with certainty that such terrible events yielded fruit that has benefited all of humanity.
Jeremiah, I’m well aware that my own projections are an issue and are at play here. But my projections are no less valid than Jeff and Stan’s projections of inerrancy, for example. But I do have an issue with God’s declaration of every Canaanite death, whether as illustration for our sake, or as fulfillment of greater good. The cross tells us that something is going on beyond the obvious in these horrific events; I believe that evidence points to God not ordering such a thing; all the reasons I’ve been given for God doing such a thing have been unacceptable and contrary to the Gospel. If I were to hear an acceptable reason – I don’t know what that would be – I’d be happy to accept it. But God being God, there certainly could have been an alternative to the Caananite slaughter that could have yielded the same fruit.
Damian,
Regarding your comment that Scripture very rarely speaks about itself, I would encourage you to read The Divine Inspiration Of Scripture by Louis Gaussen.
Louis Gaussen wrote this book “to set forth, defend, and establish the Christian doctrine of Theopneustia – the Divine, complete Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.”
From Monergism Books: “At various times the divine inspiration of Scripture has been denied altogether; more subtly people have claimed that inspiration is limited to certain portions, said to vary in degree from place to place or is contained within the text.
Gaussen appeals to God’s Word itself, and to the highest possible source, Jesus Christ, to show that the Bible is God’s work and that our faith may indeed rest secure here.”
Stan, I’ve added the book you speak of to my amazon wishlist. Unfortunately, it’s quite expensive to order from America, so it’ll be a while (I buy in big shipments about once every six months to save on shipping).
I’m dumbfounded that you think that the entirety of God’s revelation is contained within a single book. If this is the case, why is the entire story necessary?
I’ll just say that what I said is it’s accurate, not entire.
I’d appreciate it if you answered my questions above, but I’m happy to leave it here if that’s what you wish.
Thanks for discussing with me!
I would like to leave it here for now (just for this post, not forever). If others would like to address those questions I’d be fine with that. I’d be glad to listen in. (Damian’s questions are September 27 at 1:49 AM)
You’re welcome and nice to discuss with you.
Jeff
Damian,
Monergism.com is an excellent resource on many topics. You may want to check out their section on The Word of God which contains dozens of articles and mp3 files.
Please bear with me as this is rather long, but hopefully it will explain the duality of our sovereign God in a way overlooked by most for apparent reasons. We love the fluffy feel good stuff, but seem to hide from the reality of a JUST God. Thank you.
Second guessing God
November 10, 2009
We can not call God pure and Holy and think that God does not hate sin. If God didn’t hate sin . . . He wouldn’t be holy.
–ArthurPink
The bottom line is that to address God in the who, what, where and why is to first understand the divine nature of God in his infinite element. God plainly states in his inspired words the Bible that I am the Alpha and Omega, and that he created humanity in OUR image and likeness. His first statement refers to his relationship with finite time; the second refers to spirit and free will. I am one of those people that is compelled to take the Word of God literally, hence to rationalize it thusly. The problem with God’s human creation is our inability or insipid attempt to have a relationship with him. It is often asked why God chose a specific nation of people to personally favor and care for. It is simple, through Israel – a stiff necked or obstinate people – God revealed himself throughout history to mankind. The story of Israel and those that occupied the same space is the story of all mankind and our uniqueness in the eyes of God to the rest of his creation. The underlying topic in the Bible is righteousness and reward, and sin and punishment. Once you grasp the concept you understand the nature of an autonomous God.
From the first parents to now most humans have chosen to either ignore God altogether, giving their inherent endowment of perceiving creation over to worshiping creation rather than the Creator. Or, because we fancy feeling good over being convicted of shortcomings we fancy worshipping God light in which duty to the Creator doesn’t interfere with worldly pursuits.
To know God on a personal level is to understand his duality. It is also imperative to think of God in his TRIUNE (Three In One Godhead) persona. “Let US make man in our image and likeness.” That indicates the Father, Son and Holy Spirit character of God. In God’s duel personality he is an ALL BENEVOLENT FATHER to the godly. He is also, though, a WRATHFUL JUDGE in dealing with the ungodly or God light. It can be rightfully said that God is LOVE and JUSTICE.
In his state of being in an infinite parallel place to our finite state of being God has always been. There is no trying to understand that if God created, who created God. God is also perfect, without blemish or sin. His original creation was also created in his perfect likeness. God, who is without sin abhors sin and cannot be in the presence of sin in his place of being we call heaven. Therefore God created a place separate from him called Hell, consigned first to fallen angels and then humans who die in sin.
Since God is HOLY, pure, undefiled; to purposely disobey his perfect HOLY will literally set in stone is to be separated from him both now and possibly in eternity. This imperfection called sin is what brought humanity through Adam and Eve’s willful transgression in the state of perfection that was the Garden of Eden into our current inborn fallen state called ‘sin nature’. It is by selfishness, or concerns in ones own self without regard to others that is the core of sin. Sin is selfishness to righteousness’ selflessness.
Two of God’s crowning creations in his image and likeness caused him the most grief. The first was the seraph Lucifer who with other seraphs continuously circled the throne of God extolling his HOLINESS. The second was of course man/woman. The common denominator that caused their fall from grace was pride, selfishness, sin. Pride has two definitions, one denotes a sense of ones own value and dignity; the other denotes an excessively high opinion of ones self, conceit and arrogance as in PRIDE goes before destruction (Proverbs 16:18)
It was from the latter, a prideful Lucifer wanted not only to be like God but to rise above him, while a prideful Eve succumbed to Lucifer called Satan’s wiles to be like God, knowing good and evil that the fall of grace for both that intrinsically linked them together through time came about. Sin caused by self-importance forever separated a HOLY God from his UNHOLY sentient spirit-spirit/flesh creation.
While trying to understand why God would personally cause and later command the destruction of masses of humanity it is vital that God’s HOLY nature is understood. Most people choose to either not believe in God, or give him lip service only because they take offense at his wrathful judge nature, failing to take into account his LONGSUFFERING or patient and accommodating nature to refrain from punishing man for long periods of time that they can turn away from their sinfulness and turn back to him.
It is also vital to understand that man is a creature of God created with divine God like attributes –free will, or the ability to choose our own path being paramount. King David addresses the divinity of man in the sentience creation order, as being a little lower than angels in his Psalm prayers to God. Angels created spirit being able to transcend dimensions of being whereas mankind created flesh is restricted to the body being the difference.
From Genesis (Alpha) to Revelation (Omega) the thread that connects the books of the Bible together is redemption of his fallen human creation. He yearns to bring mankind back into alignment with his original creation intent that was perfection. This culminates with the life and death of God the Son, called Immanuel; God among us in the person of Jesus the Christ or Messiah, anointed one.
Jesus was born and lived in perfection (HOLINESS) to be the unblemished redemptive sacrifice for the souls of sinful mankind destined for the eternal pain and torment in the darkness of Hell. From the ascension of Jesus back to his original state until now, his HOLY word of redemption has been carried on by disciples and followers of Christ. The act of redemption never ends until the end of time as we know it.
Having said all of this leads me back to the quandary of a personal God, viewed as all compassionate being able to destroy masses of humanity either personally or through his people the Israelites. It is best to answer your concerns by picking up the Bible and studying the first five books called the Pentateuch. It is a book of beginnings, the nature of God as applied to his creation and the laws set down by God for mankind to bring back in connection with him.
Throughout these five books the term made by God to his people the Israelites through his human agents is “purge the EVIL from among you”. In context to God’s nature (HOLY) and the nature of evil (SIN) it begins to make sense that God in his other nature as WRATHFUL JUDGE would be compelled to rid the land of EVIL by the destruction of its human agents. Do not get hung up on the all compassionate and benevolent God, which he is. By his own order he is two. Sin cannot go unpunished.
Keep in mind that those that committed despicable willful acts in the sight of God were also made in his image and likeness, becoming a disease as it were. Were they allowed to live they would contaminate his chosen people and turn them from him. From his choosing of Abraham to become the father of many nations beginning with the Hebrews who became the Israelites, his first covenant with man spoke of blessings on those who blessed Abraham and curses on those who cursed him. That in itself gives evidence of the duality of God’s nature.
The Bible, especially the Old Testament is rife with examples of God’s wrath against the unholy, including his chosen people. During the time of Noah God grieved that he even made man on the earth. Violence became the standard for human behavior. So with the exception of one man and his family and two of every kind of clean and unclean animals on the earth God destroyed all life on his celestial ball. Man’s wickedness was so great it polluted everything.
Being a forgiving God he established mankind once again through Noah and his family. After God chose a people to reveal himself to all humanity he set rules of righteousness to live by through Moses. By giving humanity free will he set in our spirits the difference between right and wrong, giving us the ability to choose how we would think and behave. Once again mans sin nature got the better of him and he followed his evil desires.
This was the evil state of the Canaanites living in the Promised Land God gave his people for an inheritance. It was this same state of evil that kept the Israelites wondering in the desert between Egypt and Canaan for 40 years. It was the Israelites wicked behavior that saw one generation pass before their posterity could enter the land. It was this same wickedness that saw thousands of them destroyed at the hand of God in one fail swoop . . . wrathful judgment.
If he so judged his own people to destruction at his own hands, and once he got their attention that they would live in his perfect order of righteousness, it stands to reason he would command them to ‘purge all evil from the land’ by eliminating all human life in order that the disease of sin would not infect God’s chosen. As you continue to read you find that it didn’t work because the Israelites didn’t follow through God’s command much to their detriment.
If you were to look at a Bible concordance you would see that there are more references to God’s anger, fury and wrath than there are to his love and tenderness. God’s wrath is essential to God’s character. God’s wrath is not likened to what we think of as wrathful, explosive behavior. God’s wrath is a deep and settled opposition to all that is evil. His Wrath is a natural counterpart to his Holiness. God cannot equalize that which is right and evil.
God is a just God, therefore along with rewarding righteous behavior he must also punish wicked behavior –hence his command to kill all the wicked Canaanites. It is said that God cannot be just and shrug at sin. That is like the sexual ravager or murderer of a loved on getting off with a stiff fine. Many believe the wrathful God of the Old Testament is a tempered loving God of the New Testament. Wrong!
Christ and his disciples continue to emphasize in an even more intense way the wrath of a God of justice. The overriding theme in the New Testament is repentance, or change or you will not become part of the Kingdom of God. Christ goes so far to warn about the ‘wide path most traveled that leads to Perdition, or eternal damnation’ and the ‘narrow road least traveled to the narrow gate into Heaven that only a few will enter.’
An entire book called by Catholics The Apocalypse and by Protestants Revelation, that describe in the most horrendous way the coming judgment of God on the godless and watered down so called believers. No matter how it is explained, God comes equipped with a dual nature, a nature that rewards and punishes. It is cut and dry and is not allegory; it is straight up fact written as it happened.
You think the Canaanites suffered? That was just one group of people, the coming just apocalyptic judgment takes in all of humanity. God truly does love the sinner. He gave up his Son to humiliation and great suffering even unto death to prove his love for humanity. Our JUST God though judges and punishes by separating himself from the sinner through eternity. It is his nature. Think about it.
The Turban Torpedo
Thanks Howard.
Jeff