Justin Taylor at Between Two Worlds offers this quote from Tony Jones:
Some people today may find it compelling that some Great Cosmic Transaction took place on that day 1,980 years ago[*], that God’s wrath burned against his son instead of against me. I find that version of atonement theory neither intellectually compelling, spiritually compelling, nor in keeping with the biblical narrative.
I thought I would try to fill in just a small part of that narrative that he may be missing. I know I may be accused of selectively quoting Scripture, but I think we should back up our doctrine with Scripture and not only human logic, or anything “intellectually and spiritually compelling” (Isaiah 55:8-9, 1 Corinthians 2:1). I tried my best to put them in an order or grouping that would make it more “narrative”.
I’m choosing not to provide any other quotes, thoughts or comments since I would like to let Scripture speak for itself.
Leviticus 17:11
for the life of the body is in its blood. I have given you the blood on the altar to purify you, making you right with the LORD. It is the blood, given in exchange for a life, that makes purification possible.
Leviticus 4:35
Then he must remove all the sheep’s fat, just as he does with the fat of a sheep presented as a peace offering. He will burn the fat on the altar on top of the special gifts presented to the LORD. Through this process, the priest will purify the people from their sin, making them right with the LORD, and they will be forgiven.
2 Chronicles 35:11
The Levites then slaughtered the Passover lambs and presented the blood to the priests, who sprinkled the blood on the altar while the Levites prepared the animals.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Corinthians 5:7
Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.
Romans 8:3
The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
Isaiah 53:4-6
Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.
Isaiah 53:10-11
But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
Galatians 3:13
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)
Romans 3:25-26
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
Romans 4:25
He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God.
1 Peter 3:18
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time*. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. (emphasis added)
* as in “1,980 years ago” by our time frame
Good words my brother.
“It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13.
You are evidently not aware that the law of God has had an addition made to it AFTER the fact of Jesus’ crucifixion. Ref. Rom. 5:20 and Heb. 7:12. Therefore his crucifixion (sacrifice) cannot be the direct benefit you assume it to be. Your salvation from the penalty of eternal death is predicated upon hearing the only Way this added law must be obeyed.
Of course we need to be obedient.
Jeff
That said, our salvation is not dependent upon our obedience as though obedience was causal. Rather, our obedience flows from a converted heart.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)
Any man must first obey the particular statue which has been added to the law by Jesus’ crucifixion before his heart will be converted by God. You are assuming that Jesus’ crucifixion is a direct benefit. However his crucifixion actually is only the foundation for instituting by statue the process you must use to be saved or a violation of law occurs for which there cannot be any reasonable resolution. And by the way. Pronouns in the NT are not general and inclusive. They are specific to the writer and the persons to whom the writer is addressing in that both parties have used the lawful process established by Jesus’ crucifixion. Regarding the fact that the message of salvation taught by the apostles was made ineffective by the introduction of an error you need to discover and define what this error actually is.
what “fact”?
There are three recorded facts of Satan making runs against the apostle’s teaching. Simon Mangus’s attempt to buy spiritual gifts, Apollos, and the Galatian’s accepting a false message of salvation. Of the three the third has been very successful. Every version of the salvation message articulated in the contemporary setting, since these perspectives teach that Jesus’ crucifixion is a direct benefit, are authenticated as an error by the fact that the spiritual gifts are not resident to these doctrines. Even tho no spiritual gift can be sold nor bought they are supposedly sold and bought from the educational system that supports contemporary churches. Bible schools, Bible colleges and seminaries. However the church (the word church meaning group) Jesus’ is head of has no need of these educational institutions. For all children of God are exclusively taught by God’s spirit and they cannot teach error.
Subsequent to the above I suggest your carefully read the parable (there are three accounts) of the Tenants and notice what Jesus’ says is God’s intention toward those who crucified Jesus. If the crucifixion of Jesus is the direct benefit you claim of his death in place of yours those people should have obtained the same benefit you claim, but they didn’t. And also note what Jesus says is the unilateral condition after his crucifixion in Jn. 16:8. The remainder is guilt relative to sin AFTER his crucifixion, but your doctrine(s) assert that only Jesus’ crucifixion has resolved all differences between you and God and this conclusion is in error.
False teacher meter is off the chart.
So are you subjecting a direct statement of Jesus to question?
Agreed, Stan McCullars…(“False teacher meter off the charts”). I admire your succinctness. But I’m going to do my thing and possibly use too many words…How to say it, though? First of all, this response comes with a heart-felt prayer for this man, that He would have an encounter with the Living Christ. Of course, that would be the only way to pierce any anti-Christ, iron-clad heart. Mr. Theodore Jones is not speaking from a heart that has been turned from stone to flesh by the Living Christ (nor is the original Tony Jones in the article above). Lord bless them both and soften their hearts to hear the truth. Theodore’s argument gets difficult to pin down as comments progressed…but it can be caught with his very first statement, which betrays a misunderstanding of scripture! Mr. Jones must be looking at NIV translation only for Romans 5:20 “The law was added” doesn’t mean a law was ‘added’. Is it just me, or is this a silly, simplistic error? It really means (from the Greek), that THE law ‘entered’ or ‘came in’ or was ‘given’. It’s speaking of the 10 Commandments, not any new law – which is evident, even with the misleading word ‘added’, if you read the surrounding scripture. The 10 Commandments were given to show us our very inability. Clearly, as we live our lives, day by day, it is apparent that we are not capable of obeying any law perfectly. If we could obey, we wouldn’t be in this predicament and in need of a Savior. Mr. Jones, if I get what he’s saying, is claiming that we have to obey as a condition to salvation…impossible (see Romans 3). Christ is the One who obeyed the Law for us. God incarnate – God in human form – the only One who could. We are ‘fixed’ only through Jesus (whether it’s original salvation or after, as we live out our transformed lives – Gal. 3:3). Important note to all Believers: As long as we are asleep to the Power of Christ that is in us – through which we receive comfort, hope and the ability to overcome sin, we will continue to lose hope, be anxious and be overcome by sin again and again and again. But praise God, his mercy is new each and every morning…which is why and how we go on. If we who truly belong to Christ (‘…my sheep know my voice…’ from John 10) could all awake to the Power within, that is the very same Power that raised Christ from the dead, we would live our lives very differently (myself included!). I’m getting it, by the grace of God, a little bit more every day. It’s all Him. It’s all Him. (JTB said “I must decrease that He may increase.” – John 3, let it be so, Lord for us all) What a counter-culture message!! The enemy fights so hard and has had so many years to hone his craft. But, of course, greater is Christ, who is in us, than the enemy, who is in the world. Praise God!! BTW…no idea when this discussion originally took place? Today is March 26, 2011.
Thanks Marlene. You can see a date below each person’s name of their comment.
Jeff
“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Heb. 7:12
Some make the claim of being a scripture zealot, but without proof, it is only a claim.
Some make the claim of being Theodore A. Jones, but without proof, it is only a claim.
I’m zealous for Scripture, believe it or not.
I’m getting tired of these comments from Theodore. Any more of these types from you and I’ll just delete them. I should have stopped the trolling quite a while ago. If you want to speak intelligently, you could try to interact with what Marlene said, in a polite way.
Jeff
“Whenever ignorance is blissful, tis folly to be wise.” According to Jesus it is only a few that ever find what the small narrow gate into God’s kingdom actually is. Being on the side of the many who think that the crucifixion of Jesus has absolved your problems with sin’s penalty must be in ignorance of the fact that he says that the issue of guilt relative to sin remains outstanding after his crucifixion. Reference his quote in Jn. 16:8.
No matter what the majority thinks and teaches in assuming that the crucifixion of Jesus is a direct benefit for them by the sin of murder caused by bloodshed, they are mistaken.
Insignificant Theodore,
Take your doctrines of demons elsewhere. Quit wasting Jeff’s time.
Just one more try…What exactly, Theodore, IS the “change in the law” that you feel you see?? You’re a little vague on that. A single isolated verse of scripture can mean many things. If you read the full passage, it is explained that the change in law that came with the new covenant was that sacrifices were no longer needed in order to be in the presence of God. No sacrifices, at all, anymore – ever. There is one thing and one thing alone that is necessary. – Jesus – just Jesus. Hebrews 7:18 says: “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.” In John 14:6, Jesus says: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” And Hebrews 7:27b-28 points out that: “…He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the LAW appoints as high priests men who are weak, but the oath which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.” It’s clear that the ‘new law’ is that we don’t have to offer sacrifices anymore because Christ fulfilled the law – perfectly – which is what God requires.
Teddy…are you just joshin’ everybody?…maybe your job is to get believers to seriously contend for the faith (in which case I thank you for the process and practice) – or do you fit 1Corinthians 2:14…or 2Corinthians 4:4?? Serious stuff…serious…
I’ll let you guys take it if you’d like. I won’t respond anymore. Thanks.
Jeff
Jesus says that his disciples are identified by the action of obeying his commands. “If you love me keep my commandments.” And isn’t one of his commands “Love your enemy”? Which of you does this? It is true that Jesus has fulfilled, i.e. perfected, the law of God by making an addition to it AFTER the fact of his crucifixion and resurrection.
The small narrow gate into God’s kingdom is actually a law and if you do not have the faith to use it you will commit a sin for which it is impossible to be forgiven.
“It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” This statement can only be true by a law having been added to the law. For the Jew this truth is a stumbling block and for the Gentile it is foolishness as you prove it to be.
Jeff,
No need to cast pearls before swine.
I am aware that I am doing that. But no swine is going to make an argument to God that he gained a direct advantage by the sin of a man’s murder caused by bloodshed. Especially the murder of God’s only begotten son. For God has promise him this:
“And for Your life blood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.” Your claim of being a swine is not an escape from God’s requirement. Every animal will account for Jesus’ crucifixion as a sin and so will each man. There are no exceptions.